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How Automation Grow my Video Production Company – Dean Francis EP4 Podcast

by Clarke Scott | Last Updated: September 9, 2021

In this episode, I speak with Dean Francis about how he is leveraging automation and media buying for video client lead generation for his business.

This episode goes deep into the details of the business.



Show Notes & Resourses

Episode Transcript

Diversifying building a team trying to do less hands on tools myself, trusting other people taking the leap of faith in them to do it, trying to buy from a better, a lot of automation. Absolutely 100%.

Welcome to another episode of the next level filmmakers show where we interview filmmakers from around the world to explore their pathway to success. What worked, what’s working now, so you can take your Korean business to the next level. I’m your host, Clarke, Scott. And I believe that having the right systems in place is the difference between taking your career and business to the next level, or just being another dude or dudette with a camera. So if you’re tired of hustling for one off projects, the undervalued and underpaid, I’d like to invite you to an exclusive free training I’ve put together for filmmakers, just like you where I share the exact strategies I’ve used to grow my own video production agency. Just go to Clarke, Scott That’s Clarke with an E. Clarke Scott forward slash free training. That’s Clarke, Scott forward slash free training and start your journey to becoming a next level filmmaker today. Right. Mr. Francis, do you want to click into this? Sure thing, man. Okay, cool. So first question is, how did you get your start? How did I get my start? Um, well, you know, I was quite young. Actually, when

I when I first entered the entertainment industry. And you know, I was like a really passionate like young actor. I used to do like drama classes, during the weekdays and on the weekends. And at one point, actually, my dad heard about an open casting call, which I think he just heard about, I’m like, free AWS or something. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it was it was it ended up being a show that Molina’s were casting out of Melbourne, which was the Australian Children’s Television Foundation. And it was it was a decent budget, and I ended up getting a guest role in the show. And so I spent 12 days or something I was would have been about 1314. somewhere around there. Okay. Yeah, yes. So, you know, it was kind of a dream come true, you know, in the sense of, like, you always think about yourself as a screen actor. But yes, so I spent like, you know, a bunch of time, not really actually I’ve been

not my head, my mugs a little bit too rough. To be on the, you know, I’m in front of the camera now. But you know, I’m hiding behind a microphone. But anyway, was it lucky? Lucky Henderson’s key Henderson kids kind of thing?

Oh, no, it was it was a, it was like a science themed show that shows, markets and it was like, setting this, like telescope up in a sort of region on northern New South Wales. And it was about these the children of these like astrophysicists to, you know, sort of trying to do their own kind of science, you know, shit that they’re doing and, and, and, of course, all these these other young, you know, characters kind of enter their world because they’ve got like science scholarships and stuff. And, and I was this, like, super geeky, but kind of existentially suicidal, kind of 13 year old kid who sort of wanted to come up with the cosmos for like, the final time, you know, and essentially blow myself up. And it was great, great role. And I had these wonderful, and like, it was it was really nicely written. I think Deborah Cox wrote, like, wrote my episode, and it was directed by, like Mario Andretti. Oh, so you know, people who’ve really gone on to do great things. And, and, you know, for what it was, it was actually quite high production value, and it was all on location. And it was shot on, you know, 35 millimeter film. And it was just the coolest week, you know, it was, you know, one of the few times I’ve gotten out of Victoria, you know, seeing what, what, you know, a warmer climate is like, everyone was, I think it was like a six or eight, eight month shoot in total. So, it really was, I was about coming in about halfway through. So it was a real sense of family and the cast and crew. And I just, and I just remember marveling at what looked like buildings, which of course, weren’t buildings, they were exterior sets, and you’d walk behind them, and you’d go, Oh, it’s just one wall. And to me, like, That was incredible. That just there was this sort of almost like an alternate reality that they were creating. And the and the way we’re just building group worlds, right? Oh, yeah, that’s what we did. Yeah, absolutely. And of course, it was set against the all these actual, you know, gigantic telescopes, which are incredible structures, which is why they obviously shot there. But yeah, just sort of coming out of it. And it was this kind of thing you had to fly in and out on this, like seven seater airplane, which was like crazy, a crazy adventure. So the whole thing was just kind of overwhelming. And I remember, like coming out of that experience and having just just become such fast friends with so many people. Just actually almost like crying, leaving in this little seven state of going, I have to be honest. Like, this is, like found my place. Yeah. You know, so from there, like, I kept acting until I kind of finished high school and then I like transitioned over into directing. And I think I just started to feel like well acting was just like, you know, I needed to be spending my time creating things from behind the camera and having more control over the output. So I just sort of got a little bored. You know, I did a few like soaps and, and other TV. TV jobs, but I just, I just remember,

you did knives as welding. Nearly every strain act that goes anywhere is gone through neighbors, right.

Well, that’s right. Yeah. And I mean, again, I work with some great people, you know, who’ve gone on to fabulous careers, but, but I remember, you know, just sit just as long as you’re sitting in the green room just waiting, you know, waiting, waiting, waiting, thinking, God, you know, life is too short, but at the same time had this fascination with like, you know, how, like, you know, how the thing was sheduled you know, like, the practical side of like shooting in the studio and turning it around and, and, and how to how you cram so much into into one shooting day and just interested in that. And then I met up with some, some guys on the crew who were like putting together like a short film, which they wanted me to be and it was like a period pace shot in a studio K, which was where they used to make prisoner. And there was some pretty wild

Australian things out the America and this is going to be what the fuck are these guys? Very strange centric today. Can I ask you a question just to kind of focus in I’m actually really interested in what was going on the caused you to? And I’m not distorting him? i? I just heard a funny clicking sound I don’t think so. What caused the pivot from front of camera to behind camera? Was there something you mentioned before there was a little thing that caught my attention was that you wanted more control over the creative process? What was going on that that made you decide to move behind the camera? Because you’re not you haven’t acted for? What? 1015? years? Right?

Yeah, yeah. Professionally? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think it was, it was? That’s a really good question. You know, I think ultimately, I realized that it was such a powerful medium. And that, you know, and the power of it sort of hit home after like, a few months, working on neighbors, for example. You know, there’s obviously a few months delay between when you shoot your episodes, and when they go to air. And I think about, you know, some time into my engagement on the show, it just became impossible for me to, for me to get on the tram. You know, we lived in Fitzroy at the time, and I used to catch the Nicholson street tram down to the city. But there were just the 96 Yeah, or the ad things used to control as well. But but but there were just certain times a day where I just and we lived right next to a Catholic girl school, right there in Nicholson Street. And, and there were just times a day when it was just important, I just knew there was no point in going outside, there was no pointing on the trend, because, you know, I was on air and, and it was just like this insanity. And I had this little taste of what it’s like to be. Well, yeah, I mean, to be to be recognizable, at least. And so I just sort of realized and, you know, obviously, you know, think things are a little different now, but but just the power and the reach that you can have as as an image maker and as a storyteller. Yeah. And I think that, you know, I also probably, like, at that period of time, when I was like doing that sort of work, you know, that sort of show and the kind of family values and the really, you know, sort of like what, you know, kind of straight sort of world that it was creating was kind of jarring with, with, with who I was and the way that I was starting to see the world. And so I, I kind of really figured that this was a really powerful, you know, medium to be able to tell stories visually that people can watch and that if I could have some control and some say in what those stories were, then I could, you know, like actually have some sort of impact. I think that I probably did look at it very much like I want to impact society, you know, I do want to kind of have a an effect on the world, you know, as you do when you’re

well, Miley Tina, I think most filmmakers this I know, I still feel that way. Um, yeah, but he’s and I still feel that way. I still storytelling can mean you know, in some ways, we are we are a narrative. Who is who is Dean Francis. Francis is in you know, the stories you tell yourself about yourself. So I’m Clarke Scott Who the hell’s Clarke Scott? Yeah, me you know, it’s it’s it’s the whole notion of identity. What is identity was in part, it’s, it’s Kind of who we think we are. Yeah, that’s a story. Yeah. Yeah, no, absolutely. not to get too deep into the ontological status of human beings. But so so the the pivot point was really that you began to as you were getting older and moving into your 20s, you started to see the world different and see yourself different. And you wanted to have some control over over how you’re presenting yourself, and also how you’re being perceived by others. And therefore, what you’re going to do is you’re going to use visual storytelling, because you saw the power of it, to help influence others view on you in a positive way, as well. Yeah. in your community. Right. So,

yeah, and not just people’s view of me, but you know, I think I wanted to align people with with my view on the world, you know, that’s what I yeah, yeah, no, exactly. I think that I definitely that, you know, and, and the more I worked within sort of story worlds of shows and things like that, the more I, I became connected with my own story, and the more that felt important and increasingly urgent to actually embark on, on telling that story and showing, you know,

okay, and and so once you kind of made the, the, the step behind the camera, tell us about how that all kind of came about?

Yeah, well, you know, I went to a school where there was not a lot of focus on on the Creative Arts on media studies, much like, much like the clock, where there was not a lot of exactly, it was all sports. So I didn’t really I didn’t have a lot of training in the school sense. But of course, I’d picked up quite a lot as an actor, you know, looking at how crews function, so I felt a degree of of self sufficiency. And I and I remember I went down to into the city in Melbourne, and I bought bought a whole bunch of secondhand super eight gear. And, and at the time, this was, you know, obviously some time ago, kind of just right, just before a digital video So, so really, your options were sort of like beta cam SP now all this whole other world of film, and I knew that that was the big differences film and videotape. So, so I figured I had to master how to shoot on film. I started with super right, you know, a lot of trial and error, and eventually got up the confidence to, to just say, look, fuck it, I’m just gonna make a short film. And I remember being at the, like, you know, and I was an obsessive cinephile. You know, I’d go to like, you know, Melbourne cinema tech. And, and I’d be at the Astor on a Friday night for the double feature. And I, once I decided I was making a film, I would just go after things, you know, so there was an actor, who I approached, who I just saw him at the bar at the Astor. And he just looked, he looked fantastic. And he looked like, he would be great for this role. And I said, I’d literally in my knife, like 17 year old way just went up to the Excuse me, are you an actor? Because I’m making a film. As it turns out, he was an actor, and, and he was super keen, and like, fascinated by the kind of, I suppose the naivety and the ambition of this thing. And, you know, sure enough, he started the film. And, and, you know, it’s like any I think this is true, regardless of the scale of the film. Once you get one element on, you know, the other elements kind of, you know, sort of snowball.

Oh, no doubt. Yeah. If there’s momentum behind things, I’m sure you’ve with you. So Danes shot two features, I’m sure it’s the same with with the tool three. Well, two and a half. The one that’s coming up is three and a half four.

That would be three knobs. So yeah, there was one that I did back in that Melbourne era, which is a I think that’s right, yeah, five minutes instead of a short feature but it you know, it had a festival life and

the so I’m sure you know what I was gonna say and I just I didn’t want to mention my own thing. Because if I do that every episode then people are gonna get fucking sick of it. But I do know through experience that if you get you get some momentum and everyone else kind of falls in behind

that’s exactly yeah, yeah. Yeah. And and you know, basically we ended up shooting like a 10 minute short film on like triax Super eight film all around the carbon Housing Commission area and it was like a sort of really ambitious futuristic sci fi thing. And you know, cut it literally with with scissors and and tape, you know, and I think really the first moment where I was like, I think you know, cuz I was like, This is totally not gonna work, you know, was we, we rented out a room at the Empress Hotel and we screened the film, you know, like, and literally had a four track like analog cassette player, you know, which we’ve done the soundtrack on and you like hit play on the projector on

it and when

You know, and then and it just got a great response, you know, and just people were like, Oh my god, I can’t believe you like you just made this. And so from there, you know, it just it got into a bunch of festivals, I made another one with a very similar process that was, you know, even more like sort of personal and that screen and something like 40 or 50 film festivals, and won a bunch of awards. And then it was like, Alright, I found my thing, you know? Yeah, that’s it. And what happened next? So then that’s when I Well, I made more short films, I decided to really because, you know, I

was I was doing commercials at this point. Are you still on? No. Okay. So you know, you’re still like, working as a waiter or something like that you’re doing odd jobs here and there, and filmmaking still kind of a passion project or what? What’s going on, and I

was doing a BA at Melbourne Uni. And I had a day job, which was like delivering, you know, remember those straight press mags like beat? And like, impressive. Yeah. So I used to impress? Yeah. Yeah, I used to deliver those to pubs, when I didn’t have classes, and I did a whole lot of other shitty jobs, of course, as you did. But yeah, I mean, it was and it was a tension between, like, you know, the more, the more time I spend doing film, the less, the less I spent at university, but at the same time, Melbourne Uni is such a great environment for just a lot of creativity. And like, I became the president of the filmmakers Association. And that meant that I could unlock a little bit of funding to just you know, not very much money, but just to enough to see the short film or something like that, you know, it meant that I could, you know, if I programmed to film festival started a whole bunch of like, sort of filmmaking come, you know, screening nights where you could screen your work, and just sort of got amongst it, and that sort of stuff. And, and then, eventually, I just realized, there was just not enough time in the day to, like, continue with this ba. And so I, I found this incredible mentor, a guy called john when twig who was a dp from sort of, you know, back yonder, in the, in the ABC days, you know, and, and it was this films like he had a film school, and it was some Diploma in cinematography, and blesses Ringling is that this is a place that I showed up to it. And I was like, Am I in the right place? Because this was literally an abandoned post office. And not only that, but there were no students. Like I was the only students and I thought like this is God’s Am I gonna guys Is he a pedophile? But as it turns out, it was incredible. he the guy was really wise and, and he’s still around. Well, it’s funny because I, another student who was in the year, I think there was there was more than one student the year before me, got in touch and said, Have you spoken to john so know if john is listening to this, john? I apologize, john. For the joke. Joke. It was a very, very wise and fantastic guy. And, and it was like, literally us and a whole bunch of like Eri bl, 35, and 35 millimeter film stuck and like lights and just really into, like, a dream on it was Oh, and I just learned all the fundamentals, which I still rely on today as a DJ, you know, I learned from that. But meanwhile, I was still very obsessed with actually television, because I was, you know, convinced that this was the, the way, you know, to really get the story out. So and this is before this is back when you you know, you were lucky if you could find that 650 6.6 kilobyte modem, we created a web series. Okay, I think I must have been one of the first web series in the whole world, because it’s just such a crazy idea. And, you know, so we created a web series, which we did on the, on the sort of latest studio in the, in the attic of what used to be called a Wii, which then became digital pictures. That was a post production facility in South Melbourne. And we shut that for a couple of weeks. And then, and I was always quite obsessed with the idea of like, you know, digital extensions and stuff like that, which, again, we’re talking about the year 2000, you know, happening. So that was not really a, you know, a conventional idea. But nonetheless, we did, we wanted to do that sort of like a making off. But instead of doing it as like, you know, serious here’s us making a thing. I gave everyone a character. So everyone when they were not on camera, like shooting the sitcom, which was a multicam sitcom. They were in their off screen character. And that became this whole other improvised kind of crazy saga that turned into this. What eventually was a short feature film, called crazy rigid, which was shot on dv tape, and was a really bizarre interesting process. I co directed it with Katrina majors, who’s a Melbourne filmmaker is fantastic. And, and still making incredible films. And and yeah, and that that took us around the world, you know Katrina and I traveled to London for the the London I think was the lemon lesbian gay Film Festival and introduced us to a whole world of the international film festival circuit. And yeah, and then I was just like, oh, okay, what do I do next? Because, you know, it was very hard to then translate that into something very commercial. So I just stopped making films for a while, and it just became a musician and played in bands and, and did that for a little while.

After all, his work, which obviously didn’t pay any money, and the well, you know, it didn’t sustain your life as as, as a filmmaker, a bunch of awards, you, you still weren’t able to sustain your career. So. Okay, so you stopped doing that you go off and do other things? What was the point at which? So actually, what we’ll do is we’ll transition into question number two, because this, this might then kind of lead into a nice conversation about the, you know, actually having a sustainable career because next level filmmaker is, you know, across the board, whether it’s the mastermind, the program, the whatever it’s all about, it’s all about finding that that that thing, right, so yeah. Second question that I ask everyone is, what’s the one unique or even strange thing that you’ve done? That you feel has been the biggest contributor to your success so far? So I think success with is this kind of this balance between art and commerce? So one thing that you did, either back in the day, or even just recently, that’s been able to help that?

That’s a really good question. And I mean, of course, they often say, there’s not just one thing, but if there is one thing that I’ve probably done consistently, it’s to, like, always choose independence, in the sense of like, like, like trying to put myself into a situation where I’m the decision maker. And I found that that has been like when I’ve done that, and that’s often actually about taking, taking quite a big risk, and going out in the limb, and maybe not doing what might seem like the, like, safe and kind of obvious and profitable pathway. Because if a job is in front of you, or something and you, you need to say, look, I need to be my own boss, I’ve consistently taken that, that that path, which is which has been a bit of sort of, like almost a middle finger to, to the conventional wisdom.

Yeah. Okay. So what I’m hearing when I hear that is that there’s this underlying entrepreneurial spirit that is kind of deep in with deep within you that really, that whole middle finger thing is No, fuck you, this is the way it’s going to be. And so what that then does is put you put yourself in situations where you’re not beholden to someone else. So yeah, I think so there’s Yeah, there’s risk there. But when big risks come can come can they can be massive fire. I’ve had massive fires over the year, but I’ve also had massive success. Right. So but it’s only when you’re able to do that. Is that what you’re saying?

Yeah, no, that’s absolutely, absolutely it. And I think there there definitely has always been like an entrepreneurial kind of, you know, element, for sure. And in looking back on it. Now, you mentioned that I think that’s a good way to put it.

Okay. And the The other thing that caught my imagination when he was saying that Oh, my almost like a sense of curiosity. And I kind of want to follow that. Because I think that that comes from exactly what it was that you said. But when you say that I thought to myself, because in when I when I’m talking to other filmmakers about commercial filmmaking, I often talk about pre framing conversations with business owners and what have you, and even producers, right? So if you, if you pre frame a conversation in a certain way, then you get perceived in a certain way. So if you start talking about storytelling, are we going to tell your brand story or we’re going to shoot with a red because it’s, you know, I’ve got this brand new red, it’s fucking 8k? What are they up to? 12k by now, whatever. Producers and business people, business people, whether they are producers or business owners do not care. And when you speak that way, then you you pre framing a conversation that puts you at a certain hierarchical level. What I’m hearing when you mentioned that and you would sounds like you were doing that before. You ever heard me say anything like that, right? pre framing conversations. And so, you know, strategy callback, that kind of stuff. It sounds like you were kind of doing that without knowing that’s what you were doing. Yeah, I was correct.

I think yeah. Definitely, I think I think it is correct. I think, you know, possibly the differences, and I think this has been the case for quite some time is that I’ve never had a strategy in terms of where’s the revenue, you know, kind of coming. And I think that there is an you know, you know, you use the term, you know, sort of hope marketing, the idea that you sort of, you feel like, you know, the work will kind of speak for itself. And, and, you know, look, I’ve been really fortunate sometimes, and this is not by design, it actually does, but it certainly can’t be relied upon. And I think that possibly my approach was on one hand entrepreneurial in terms of I always knew how to get the thing across the line, get it done. By

contradicting yourself, I’m always gonna push back on this notion that the work it’s work. I think that is the I think, everyone that ever says that and I’m saying it with with respect, not disrespect. I think it’s rubbish. And and people will look, look at me and probably laugh. And they’ll be thinking, well, that’s ridiculous. How can you not think that it’s the work that gets your work? Well, here’s the thing. There’s lots of fucking filmmakers making great stuff and even chivo. Someone like, you know, Roger Deakins, the greatest DPS in the world, their images are the best in the world. But it’s not just the it’s not just the work. No one wants to work with an asshole. Right? No one wants to work with Prima Donna. And you just mentioned you just mentioned, you just mentioned that then you said I could get the work done. So that’s not just a work, right, that that is work ethic that is turning up on time, that is an ability to understand, okay, I can’t get that shot, because we’ve only got X number of dollars, and therefore I’ve got to get it this way. That’s, that’s got nothing to do with the work. Right? Yeah, I mean, that. Yeah, I mean, I, I

guess as well, there’s the work is sort of, like, you know, I suppose I would, I would say, the creative vision stuff, you know, which is like, which is, I think, what you what you’re meaning by the work, you know, the kind of the whole, My vision is pure, and it’s amazing. And like, it should speak for itself, you know, whatever. And then there’s the sort of the very practical element of, of how do I make the call sheet? How do I, you know, make the film sellable? How do I do all of these things, which are definitely organizational slash business things? And, you know, one cannot exist without the other? And so, yeah, look, I’m absolutely agreeing with you on that. On that point, you know,

yeah. So good. I’m trying to transform the world, get filmmakers to stop thinking it’s just about the work because it never is.

And increasingly, so, you know, I mean, just to on that, you know, I think that we sort of came up in that time, you know, this area that I’m describing with the web series, when, when it really was like, it certainly felt like the pathway was that you would go to, like, VCA, or, like, you know, I remember Robert luchetti, you know, it was it was kind of within my circle. And, you know, he was he was the classic case of what should happen to you as a filmmaker in the early 2000s, which is that you go to film school, you make a short film, in his case, tiziana boober. Ne. And then MGM offers you a three picture deal at at the telluride Film Festival, and you know, you’re set and, and we did see that happening again, and again, in our sort of like, circle. So that created a sense in which all you needed is the work. But, of course, when you look at that in context, I think looking back at it now, I think at that time is certainly long past, I think that was a moment in, in in film. And they of course, that happens to one in a in a million people. And although you might know three or four of those people, it’s any more reliable. Yeah. But

it’s again, it’s not the work that the God the God him. I remember, I remember when that happened. I remember to Tiana, remember that whole thing. It was a business decision by producers in a massive company that went, here’s someone who we can make money from? Yeah, yeah. So from our perspective, as filmmakers, we then think, Oh my God, we just got to produce great work something that’s different and yada, yada, yada. And then that will happen to me. And that is it’s rubbish. It’s rubbish. What I’m not saying I want this to be very clear to you and to anyone else that hears me say these. Is that the work? What I’m not saying is the work is not important. Hmm, yeah. Because if the work is no good, then you won’t get hired, why in the world, there has to be a standard and quality production. quality production is it’s a given you have to come up with your best game. Yeah, there are some people Uh, you know, I’m probably down here, you’re up here, because you know, Roger Deakins. chivo. These guys have woo way up the top right. But if you’re not coming with your with your A game, day in, day out, you’re gonna get nowhere. But if you think that’s what’s going to make the difference, then you’re fooling yourself. So stop it. Because create, you’re getting you’re spending hours trying to kind of craft a great screenshot, and then putting that onto Instagram, and hashtag in the ideal that the idea that this is going to get your work. I think it’s crazy. And you just have to look at the people who are doing it. Who were, I mean, there’s 1000s and 1000s, of filmmakers across the world struggling. People who are wrapped by production companies, we know. And they’re earning like, 30, they’re earning less than than you would, at least in Australia, then if you worked at McDonald’s. Yeah, yeah, that’s a rapid fire production company. And you’re earning less than a kid that works in McDonald’s. What the hell’s that all about? Yeah, what it is, is a lack of strategy. Anyway, I’m starting to rant again. No, I think that’s all true. Yeah. The, of course, the work has to be good, Mass. It’s something more than that. And it is always something more than that. So I want to I want to tell you a story. Hopefully, I’ll be able to get glyndon on the show at some point Glenn and Ivan if you know his story. So cracker bag, he’s so anyone that’s watching. Go on Google what’s on Vimeo short film, Craig bag. So Linden was a graphic designer, got into VCA and in the doc stream tacos, he produced feature doc about career riders in Melbourne. And then he shot a short film called cracker bag. Fantastic little short film was actually lynched by Greg Frazier, who’s

gone didn’t

I remember London’s he had a fabulous short taco about a parking inspector. And if you saw that, I think it was his VCA grad project was something that was just the most beautifully observed landed on Greg. I’m pretty sure was glendan. But I think Greg shot it. But I could see

the VCA the VCA thesis film was about Korea. bike riders. One of them was on heroin. It was it was like the CD seat. Secret he broke into and he got he got wrapped by exit which was a exit. Yeah. Yeah. The the way that he he, that all happened was and this was before crackenback was that he shot a cat food commercial on video. So he was still a VCA. And they said, Who wants to earn 10 grand. And he did that. So you know, he’s seen an opera B. He’s seen a business opportunities. He’s gone for it. And I’ve heard Glenn and say many times, just do the work. When he talks about doing that. It’s like, just get in there and do the work. Don’t do it again. That’s not about the work will get you more work. Yeah, obviously. Yeah. Obviously the guy that’s that I’m bagging on the dude’s name now. young guy. Sam, someone. Sorry, Sam. Sorry, Glen. I can’t remember the guys name. So Glen is shooting at the moment, a feature and the young guy that’s deeping. That was a young guy that single in an email and said, I really liked the way you shot this, this music for Magic dirt. And Glen and in using him on as Beckham for purity blues, love, he loved the way he was shooting. And it was almost like he was just kind of there to make numbers up, get a couple of shots. Maybe we’ll get something here or there. And I think it was interning at accident time. That’s an example of when your work can help you stand out. But if the guy had have been useless, he would not be doing what he’s doing now. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I’m really sorry. I’m going on the guy’s name. Anyway, let’s let’s move on. So just to reiterate that the answer to that question that’s basically that this is kind of entrepreneurial thing that that allows you to stick your head out. Yeah. That’s great. Question three, what do you do to sustain your career?

Oh, God, lots of different things. I think the main thing really is just make sure that whatever you’re doing, it really interests you. You know? Well, what do I do? I I change it up. You know, I make sure it’s always different. And that might be about you know, once a week where you are Doing so many different things in that one week, you know, shooting with, with on this sort of project one day shooting on a completely different sort of project of the day, you know, in post production other days, just making sure it never feels like you have a day job, you know, but I think as well I definitely go in sort of, like phases. And, and this is like not really planned, but it just seems to always happen. Like, I feel like it almost goes in like three months chunks where I’m where I end up doing something completely different, you know, in each sort of chunk of time. And I think that’s actually just about following your nose, trusting your instincts and, and doing things that that, that that feel like they’re calling out to you personally. You know, but there’s no, there’s no like, sort of method to that I think that’s really just part, you know, part of my survival sort of mechanism that I’ve, you know, had to develop in terms of being independent and having my own, you know, shut up and things like that. And, yeah, so I think just keeping it and also to never, like always, you know, it’s very easy to sort of, when you’re set on a mission to, to say, to shut out other possibilities. But at the same time, it’s also very easy to constantly get distracted, because there are always opportunities kind of coming up. So I guess one of the things I do to sustain myself is to really try and think long and hard and look, look very carefully at every opportunity, and allow myself to be open to possibilities, but also try and really make sure that if a new possibility comes up that I go with it is actually you know, feeding something, you know, be that a personal passion or a business objective or, or whatever it is, it all has to be for a reason, I think,

Okay, what about personally, what do you what are you doing to sustain your kriya yoga, meditation, reading something outside of filmmaking?

Music, you know? And I think, yeah, well, particularly more recently, actually. And, and it’s really funny because, like, you know, I would say that filmmaking is, is both my career and my hobby, which is, can be a little dangerous, you know, because you can run yourself, you know, into the ground, because you just are so keen to explore it. But, you know, that said, you know, my, my sort of main game, professionally, in the traditional has been directing. And so I’ve found a great joy in really going back into cinematography over the last few years, and particularly digital cinematography, and, and exploring and developing deeper understanding and, and just making sure every project is is a step forward and researching and listening to other, you know, cinematography, mentors and things. So that’s really fun to me. But, you know, I think now definitely, I’m going back to music. And again, it’s sort of, it sort of came back to it through a project because I realized that I wanted to make a musical, but I sort of then went up, maybe you just wanted to make a music because you actually needed an excuse to feel like you were at work. And you actually just wanted to be creating music. So I’m definitely getting back into music in a big way. And not just on the, on the, on the precipice of maybe actually collaborating a little more, and also just learning because the last time I was in music, you know, it was just so different, technically, so much you can do now, it’s like just rediscovering cinematography, again, in the digital world.

Okay, so what I’m hearing is keeping yourself open, to open up open creatively. In order to find new projects that excite you that we’re getting that energy from that feeling of that kind of the energy that comes from being excited about something. So it’s really that it’s, it’s fostering it. It’s it’s fostering that kind of youthful exuberance, because you mentioned two things that you mentioned that and you also mentioned kind of self education. Um, interestingly, I’m very, very similar. I like to I like things to be very kind of almost like organic in a lot of ways. Yeah. And I think what I’m doing when I’m doing that is finding ways just to feel passion. Yeah, exactly. That feel that? Yeah. So yeah, self education is like this Look, when you when you, you know, new camera, right, or a new. I remember when I first heard, I remember when I watched Shane Hill, that’s the book life. So bouncing. I remember that as well. Yeah. Bouncing lot. And then diffusing, bounce light. I was like, That’s right. That’s amazing. And then, you know, just going down that rabbit, that rabbit hole of super, super diffused like double diffusion, triple diffusion, bounce dribble, and there’s an energy that you get from that. And I think in business, it’s the same with business. If I look at what I’m often what i’m talking want to do is, again foster that feeling? Because that’s what gets you through the day. Right?

Oh, look, I agree. And I mean, just if you want to pivot it back into business, because I think this does have relevance, you know, when I first started working with you, if you remember, I went down to what I thought would be a really kind of expedient path towards a particular niche that I do recall much quickly, was just like, you know, I can sort of see where it was coming from. But, yeah, you know, it was a decision made sort of, for the wrong reasons, and just, you know, sort of recently, you know, as a sort of opposite example, you know, now that I have a lot more understanding of, like, you know, marketing and distribution, and, you know, just it’s been a whole world that’s opened up, you know, through the next level filmmaker, just a nation sort of, like, come to me, you know, where it’s just like, there’s a whole bunch of super enthusiastic people, you know, it

knows don’t give it away, could people steal it? Well, yeah, don’t give the nature right now, I’m just, I’m just teasing. I’m just joking. Well, it’s

the thing is, it’s also, you know, I’ve spoken to some of my other friends who are in, you know, marketing and stuff like that, and, and everyone’s telling me, don’t touch it, you know, one a mile, you crazy, they’ve got no money, you know, but it actually is about problem solving. You know, I mean, I’ve I’ve made really good businesses out of little niches that you wouldn’t think would be would be worthwhile. But I think that the more you sort of look at it in terms of, you know, I’m realizing that life’s so short, I think, firstly, you know, if you don’t love something about it, then it’s gonna just feel like a real watching, it’ll bite you, it will come back and bite you for sure. For sure. Absolutely. And, and also, too, I think, and this is something that also has been brought home to me in the work that I’ve done with you, Clark is, is that sometimes it actually is about going off to the the the thing that that people don’t think is worth going after and turning it into something interesting and building it up from there. And, and I think that can be a bit more sustainable. In an industry that obviously moves so quickly and changes so quickly as well. Yeah.

The one of the reasons why I kind of lead that conversation where I did was that, what, so he’s, here’s what I think, creative people need to do is they need to find a balance between. Because I think as creators, we all almost, were chasing that feeling of passion. You know, when you when you write a screenplay, or you’re in the shower, and you come up with an idea for a new story, or a new way of shooting something, there’s an energy that comes with that, right? And it’s it feels it’s not adrenaline, it’s, it’s something that’s it’s not more passive. So it has that same kind of energy, but it doesn’t have that kind of heat, bitterness that adrenaline can have, right. So it’s, it’s sustainable physically and mentally, it’s quite sustainable. And that’s why we chase it, because it’s really enjoyable. And the problem with that is that it’s often not sustainable from a financial point of view. So in order to sustain it long term, you need to find a way to balance that with systems that enable you to financially be able to do it over the long term, basically. Yeah, I think that what you mentioned that it’s always about trying to solve a problem. Yeah, then that is that is, that’s the kind of the there’s a technical term which, which I’m buying on it now. The fulcrum. So the point at which everything is balancing is this this point? And, and it is being able to solve problems. So if you think about movies, if you think about great commercial TV sees back in the day, or like, like, not happy Jan, that campaign, or any great campaign that has, that has long legs, then has legs. And, you know, the only reason why people put money behind advertising is because it’s working, right. So if it has sustainability, then it’s working. Is that there is that it’s basically solving a problem. So whether it’s a great movie, what’s the problem? I’m bored, I want to be entertained. This is going to solve that problem. Yeah. So if it does that, then that then allows us to be as creative as the people who are producing that stuff. We can have a we can have a sustainable career out of whatever that is. Yeah, so even with art films, that there’s a much it’s a much smaller niche, but people are still trying to do that same thing. They’re still trying to. I know I’ve said this, but haven’t seen it said this in a video. When I watched film, I want to be moved. I want to I want to be provoked. I want to see the world and I want to see myself I want to see the world. I want to see myself In the world in a different way, I want to be nudged from, from where I’m thinking from where I am the way I see the world into a different perspective. Why? Because I want to grow. I’m chasing that feeling of self education. Yeah, I think that’s I think that’s that point is that finding that balance, and it comes down to solving a problem. So interesting. You, you, you mentioned that, is that in all the stuff that we’ve done together? Is that the kind of the main thing that you’ve got out of working from working with me?

That’s definitely that’s definitely one of the the key things. You know, I mean, I think really, and, and, you know, I think that the work that that I’ve done with you Clark, is, it sort of feels like, like the start of an ongoing, you know, a journey to really, you know, it’s funny, isn’t it? Like, like, I think I think it is a reframe, you know, and I think it is, it allows you to sort of really broaden out your audience in terms of who you’re you’re actually speaking to. I mean, for example, I’ve spent a few days, I’ve actually been around to a few different places in the inner city of Sydney, speaking to groups of people who all have the same problem. And I’ve given them a presentation. And at the end of that presentation, they’ve said, Wow, there is nothing, there is no other way that I can possibly find to solve this particular problem that I have. And in standing and listening to you for an hour, we now feel like we are closer than we’ve ever been to solving this problem. You know, and I’m, it’s a new niche for me, I’m experimenting with it. And I said, Well, what if we do some work? What if I charge you a very, very small amount of money to explore this thing with you? $1 million? Or $1 million? Yep. No, I really like a really small amount. And I was thinking I’d get two or three people. So that’s a loss later. But, you know, we’ve got dozens, you know, 1000s, because, because the response, and let me tell you like the differences that I’ve not said, I’ve not stood up in front of this group of people who were all trying to solve the same problem and said, I’m a great storyteller. I’ve, I’ve shut down three feature films and I, my I have a Digital Cinema Camera, you know, yeah, I’m not doing any of that. But what I am doing is, I’m using my, the storytelling skills, but I’ve always, always had to, first of all, tell them a good story. Yeah. Second of all my pitching skills, because I’m actually pitching them, you know, on, on, basically a way to create story that’s going to solve a business problem for them. But of course, integrating into that I’m also, you know, the fact that I that I produce really high production value stuff, and all the rest of it does come into it, but that’s not the reason they’re listening to me. You know, it’s because as you say, you know, I’ve I’ve gone in there to solve a business problem.

It’s important because if you had a if you had a given a pitch, and then and then and then you show them the video, and it’s shitty fucking, you know, shakey cam, really is gone. Yeah. Yeah. You know, in Australia, I look, I have something that you see something that’s good, good quality, production, real production value. And then I put that together with what I just heard. Yeah, that’s right. And they go, Ah, okay,

exactly. Yeah. And actually, I’ve done now, three or four of these presentations. The first time around, I actually didn’t screen any anything at all. I just was like, I just was like, assuming I you know, who I am. be naive on my part. But But honestly, the second time around, I thought, No, I’m gonna put in some stuff. I put in a little clips, clips reel, which is sort of stuff that you’d consider, I suppose, you know, top of funnel sort of type style. You know, it’s got to grab your attention. Yep. Okay, here’s a minute of things that will grab your attention. I swear to God, they will just like, you know, and I did. I did put this in about halfway through and they sort of see them going, Wow. Wow. Looks at that, you know, so yeah, I mean, it does amplify the impact of of the rest of it. But okay,

so let me ask you a question. First of all, I’m really proud of you for doing for doing that and for fucking listening. In Second thing, is a question. When you’re presenting, you’re presenting the solution to a problem, right? Yeah. Is that correct? Yes. And then so when you present your work, you know you’re presenting, here’s an example of all my good work you’re doing what you’re doing is you’re showing here’s the problem. Here’s the solution. Here’s an example of that.

Well, yes, exactly. Here’s an example of, of content that has worked to solve the problem. Yeah, yeah. So what’s that all

about? I’m asking a question knowing the answer. Let’s see if you can parents lack

a content pillar. Well, I mean, you know, it’s, it’s, that’s about You know, it’s that’s kind of authority really, you know, is saying that I have used this to solve other problems.

It’s, it’s this, if you can walk into a business and deconstruct a business problem, come up with creative solutions for that business problem out there. So that includes the infrastructure. And also the campaign’s for, then translate that into a business result and show them. Right, you’re not a dude with a camera anymore, right? So the reaction that you’re getting, is because they don’t see you as a dude with a camera, or two with a camera. From your perspective, you get to be more creative under this model. But they don’t see it that way. So piano, what was the name of the filmmaker? Again? You still don’t know. For years? It would be the same thing. When he went into his he’s he would have had meetings with with with the studio, that wouldn’t have just handed over a three deal three movie deal, you know, without having meetings, in those meetings, that they would have been. So I think this kid out, Kenny, we’re getting if we gave him a three movie deal, is he actually going to be able to pull through? Does he turn up on time? Or how does he talk? How does he speak? Is he you know, Is he crazy? Or just a like a pure artist in in that kind of, you know, crazy world kind of sense? Or is he someone that can actually do the work? Yes. Yes. That’s the reason. That’s the reason why one of my favorite filmmakers is Derek St. France, a blue Valentine, man that just well, and the story behind that. And if you if you, you know, Derek’s direct story, he was a poor filmmaker. That was all about the pure art. And then he, you know, he had a kid and, and a wife and there’s like, Oh, well, now I’ve got three, three mouths to feed, I’ve got to start doing some commercial work. Once he started doing that, he got reps. And then, you know, things like blue Valentine started to happen only after he was kind of moving into that. Understanding businesses basically what I’m trying to say, anyway, well done, might they? What did that feel like to stand in front of a bunch of business people and go through that whole thing and and get the reaction that you got? Were you surprised?

Oh, I mean, I suppose I was surprised that no one had sort of thought of it within that niche before or whatever. I mean, I have done a couple of presentations, which again, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t have been able to approach it this way prior to my, my experience with next level filmmaker. But yeah, I mean, I think the thing with this, too, is that it is a bit sort of like on it’s an untested market in the sense of, can we make something sustainable? So it also taps into a whole lot of ideas that I’ve been having about trying to scale and make the product itself not necessarily need to be touched by me, you know, so it’s stimulating kind of my, I think the next phase for me is actually about, you know, more about management and training other folks to embody the same values that we that I bring to my work, which I’ve started to do, you know, building the team and stuff like that. It was great. I mean, it was, and it sort of also shows you as well, that I think that once you have this mentality, and you have a bit of the skill set, and you have this knowledge, you actually can go anywhere. Yeah, go into any niche that you actually want. Yeah. You know, and I think I probably have a habit of, you know, now that I think I had, I had my first little experience with a nice that I just don’t think, in retrospect sort of resonated with me, I sort of swung back the other way. And I’m like, No, I’ve really got to really got to like this, which, again, is probably taking me towards places that other marketing agencies might not be going after. And again, that’s a good thing appointed difference, because what you know, I mean, you can attack a crowded market if you really want to, or you can attack a market is less crowded. Yeah. And dominate it, you know? Yep.

Yeah. Cool. All right. That actually, that’s a nice segue into the next question, which is what are you doing today to help your tomorrow?

Oh, god, that’s like, wow, God, like so many things. I mean, I’m diversifying, diversifying, building a team trying to do less hands on towards myself. Trusting other people taking the leap of faith in them to do it. Trying to buy better. A lot of automation. Absolutely. 100% that’s a big thing. Big thing.

That changed my world automation, man. That’s just yeah, it’s if you can get machine to do a job then 100%. Yeah.

And systems, you know, I mean, like, over the weekend, I was writing a workflow document a really detailed, like, 4000 Word document about how How we take this particular kind of product for this particular market through post production, specifically, what are the specs? You know, what’s your timeline need to look like? You know, because I’ve got someone else doing it, I need to make sure every project,

I know what this is, and this thing should be scaled in the next 12 months. It’s not the biggest thing in Australia, then I’m going to crawl on my hands and knees all the way to Sydney and kick you up the ass because it could be huge might

look, it could it could we’ve had a you know, we’ve had a few sort of, you know, like, yeah, I think we need to get consistent. I think there’s definitely potential to do that. But yeah, I mean, no one else is, is, is going for this, this particular niche even so everyone will be like, what the hell is this thing they’re talking about? Well, I think there’s a dimension, it covers it, but there’s good extensions on it. So look, I’m doing all that I’m trying to do, I’m trying to be more to be much more across actually, the business performance. Because for me, you know, to be perfectly honest, say this on a podcast, um, you know, I’ve been a little you know, because I’ve been traveling the world with my film, you know, the last sort of few years. And it’s really only been last year onwards that I’ve just spent a whole year just working in Sydney and stuff. So, to be honest with you, I’ve always been a bit of the mentality of sort of like, Well, you know, if I can cover the mortgage, then, you know, living where I do like, what else fucking matters, you know, whereas now, I’ve certainly transitioned into a phase of like, every month making sure the p&l is accurate, and hopefully, on the up and up, which requires a much more granular attention to detail in terms of things like bookkeeping, and handling it that spreadsheet that I gave you a split filling that filling that ad every day, the funnel one? Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely, we’re doing that. And in fact, we actually schedule a meeting. So actually, I actually don’t do that myself, I get to introduce, getting paid to do it. But what’s cool is that then, then I actually get him to create a visual version of that, that knows that document, which, which we do through analytics, and we have a meeting together at 315 on a Thursday, and we run through the analytics, I make any comments, and then we send that, you know, if there’s a client involved, then we send that to the client. So we’ve made that into a regular thing. Yeah, great. No, but yeah, a lot of that sort of just regularity stuff. You know, just looking at where you can, where you can save money. You know, I realized I had a mortgage, that was a very high interest rate. And I was like, Well, fuck it, let’s just really nip that in the bud. It’s time consuming to do all that structural shit. But yeah, it is worthwhile. And just trying to be a bit more diligent, which actually, I must say, I found it very, very stressful towards the beginning of this year, because I realized that I had to think about things in a different way. But I honestly feel I’m getting to the stage where that’s actually created this real lightness and weight that is off, because I know how to handle these these tasks much more diligently. I know that I have to devote a certain amount of time in my week to do it. But the rest of the time, there’s so much more freedom to think and to dream and to expand what’s possible, you know?

Yeah, well, that’s that sounds wonderful, man. Huh? Yeah, it’s good in there, man. Yeah, cool. Cool. Tell us something you’ve read watched or heard that inspired you recently?

Um, I would, I would actually say man Hunter. very much inspired me this last week or so? Why is that? Well, I think on an honest at a personal level, the Australian connections, you know, and a tour of Andrew Dominic, you know, Melbourne zone Sean grant, you know, a mate of mine from years ago is it’s just so great to see people who’ve gone through the come out through the world of the we have of Melbourne, Sydney, you know, film scene, working on this incredible juggernaut of a show with with David Fincher and with Netflix, doing such incredible work. But also what what it’s really inspired me on is, is that I feel like, you know, for a long time, I’ve been very, very disenfranchised with with cinema. And what is you know, what is kind of on at the cinema in particular. And I think that when you look at particularly the latest is in a manner that you can really see some very cinematic fundamentals in the storytelling, the style of coverage, the really long scenes, the attention to detail and the dialogue, I sort of feel like there is something really exciting happening cinematically, you know, it’s not, it’s on the big screen unless you unless you have your own big screen, but it’s still nonetheless real. Really gripping incredible content. And it’s I’m so proud to see so many people in our circle working on it. Right? What

Why do you think? What do you think’s happened in the in the industry that’s enabled that because in some ways, Netflix is kind of it’s caused a massive problem distribution is, I mean, as you know, you’ve shot what was it three and a half, two and a half, three and a half. And, you know, without getting into the politics of distribution and giving stuff away, I know that you’ve you’ve had it’s distributions a broken model, and it really disadvantages the filmmakers. It’s other people make money, and then the filmmaker makes very little. Yes. What do you think’s change to enable something like that show?

I think that? Well, I my personal opinion, is that I think people like Netflix are realizing that they that that the cinema market is so saturated by so much of the same product, that they actually have to differentiate the content in order for it to be interesting. I think they acknowledge that, even though people might not be going to see you know, sort of edgy, dark stuff at the cinema. There is still a huge interest in that there always has been, there always will be. And obviously, having Fincher at the helm, you know, is is like a huge deal. I’m not sure that that that that that pace necessarily makes things easier for your sort of real independent filmmaker who’s creating their own content. But I think it certainly is inspiring in terms of like just sending out a pathway that we don’t all have to make Marvel movies in order to, you know, functional careers.

I have I have a theory behind what’s going on. It’s just, it’s not a conspiracy theory, but it is it’s a silly, it’s a business theory. There’s a there’s basically a war going on between the various platforms. So whether it’s Netflix, Amazon, Apple and iTunes, that’s kind of I can’t really say them. They got to be around, but in terms of s VOD, the hearts and minds of people of being one one over. And if they can do that, then they’ve got the opportunity. In fact, someone was telling me that Jeff Bezos was saying the reason why we started Amazon Studios and prime is because we want to sell more socks. So they’re buying the basically they buying the buying films, and they bind productions. Because they’re trying to get people onto the platform, because if they can get people onto the platform, then they can sell them other stuff. So you’re interested to see what happens with with Netflix and you look at in Australia, we have for those that are not Australian, we have a product called Stan now someone very well known in the industry. I won’t mention his name, who’s who is a big, big time producer, who has a very someone very close to them to him. Like very, very close to him. That’s not Fingers crossed. That’s like that’s how close this person is. That is basically heads up a very large funding body in Australia, the number one funding body in Australia, in fact, who said that, that? He believes that Stan is basically making a business model is to build it’s almost like startups and software startups but back in the day where you build a piece of software and you flip it to a larger company. So there are there are studios want to get involved in s VOD. So he thinks that Disney wind up buying Stan stands out with Australian Netflix. So the owners are getting filmmakers are getting this stuff on Stan and they’re getting it cheap. Because what they’re doing is is creating a catalog which they can then sell to sound like someone like Disney. Yeah, so I’m not convinced if I’m not convinced it’s a good thing for filmmakers. Obviously the short term benefits Yeah, and for Fincher it’s great. School sighs he’s doing something Oh, with Netflix at the moment. right button. Yeah. Is it is a good for, for the industry as a whole filmmaking, the filmmaking industry, not the business the industry.

No, I mean, I think the the future issue that we have in Australia Is that there have always been content quotas in terms of for those overseas joining us, there’s always been a percentage of broadcast television that must be made in Australia by law. And that’s the same kind of mentality that keeps the French film industry so vibrant because percentage of any box office takings in France, regardless of the country version of the film, goes to the French film industry, similar sort of concept in broadcast here. But of course, now everyone’s watching VOD svod, no one’s watching TV, but there’s no content quota on VOD, that’s got to change. There’s also got to be a rethink of the differentiation between theatrical and non theatrical in terms of tax rebates here. And all of this will gradually lead to an increase in license fees for VOD and svod. In filmmakers, because, I mean, it’s just, you know, if you if you had the amounts of money, I’m sure every time I can relate this to you, you’ve been offered to get your film on Netflix or a Stan or something like that. It’s insanely crazy. Why would you bother Exactly. But you know, that said, and I don’t know, you know, I think this is maybe maybe starting to happen. But, you know, I think that we all do look to a time when distribution is completely democratized. And we can actually market direct to consumer, and the platform supports that. And we can actually, you know, sidestep a lot of the infrastructure that svod needs, you know, we can we can sell our own content.

Yeah. Well, there are people who are already doing that. Yes. We’ve had conversations outside of this podcast around that. And yeah, there’s, there’s people doing it, so it’s definitely possible. Yeah. So yeah, I think Did you give us No You did? You said the thing that was inspiring you was man Oh, man, humble man. Haha, man. Yeah, man. I’ve been getting into it, you know? Yeah. Cool. Cool. Cool. So and but it was inspiring you because the quality of the filmmaking that’s, that’s really

good, the quality of the filmmaking and I think it’s a return to a kind of filmmaking that I miss, and I don’t see as much in the cinema anymore. You know, Quentin Tarantino is, you know, once upon a time in Hollywood was an exception. That was a glorious experience to just say that because again, I think that’s it another piece of content that really, for me, is truly cinematic. which, to me at the opposite end of the spectrum of this kind of Marvel kind of obsession with just like class class kind of crap.

Yeah. So yeah, it is Tarantino as well. So pretty amazing filmmaker. All right. Well, we’ll leave it there. Thank you, sir. What I’ll do is I’ll, I’ll have all of the the names and so forth that were mentioned in today’s show in the show notes on the website. So amazing. Check that out. And I will put some of your work in there as well. Links through to your feature films if people want to go and check those out, as well on Yep, you’re on iTunes. You’re on Amazon. That’s right. Go to the Australian iTunes, especially if you’re in Australia. It’s i don’t i don’t think the Americans can do that though.

Oh, well, the American iTunes so I see a cent but who cares, right? Because it goes to the fucking distributors. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then the corrupt sales agents who you know, it’s a whole other story, the whole other But no, basically drown the you will see all the links to drown, which is my most recent film, you can check out my first feature film road train again on iTunes. Although if you’re in America, it’s called roadkill. And you can check me out. Our company is JJ splice. You can Google JJ splice. And you’ll see our commercial entity judges books, digital, as well as JJ splice films, which is our creative hub. Cool.

Well, thanks. Thanks for sharing your thoughts today. Fantastic. Thank you so much for having me, Clark. And once again, thank

you very much for your wisdom and guidance over the the recent months. It’s just been a great journey. My pleasure.

So have you enjoyed today’s episode, and here’s what I want you to do. Next, I want you to take one thing that you got from today’s show, and to put it into practice in your career in business, because it’s only through having the right systems in place, that you’ll be able to take your career and business from where you are today to where you want to be. So again, I hope you enjoyed today’s episode. So until next time, I’m Clarke Scott from next level filmmaker. Have a great day.

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